Caveat TowersOpinion and analysis concerning the news service of the SBTS
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Original: 8/5/2007 8:25 PM
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Sunday, August 05, 2007

 
Original article by David Roach: "New SBJT examines creation and origins"

Be very careful as you read the Towers article, because it consistently relies on equivocation when it comes to the word "creation."  In the article, and in the way of thinking presented, the "doctrine of creation" no longer means believing that God has created.  The word "creation" here means something much more specific:  young-earth creationism.  Even more specifically, creationism that boldly adheres to the dogma that the universe is less than ~6,000 years old.

So when Roach writes...

"The doctrine of creation is the foundation for biblical Christianity."

...remember that he doesn't mean that believing God created is the foundation of Christianity.  He means believing in young-earth-creationism (YEC) is the foundation.  This theme runs the length of the article and is almost certainly familiar to most Towers readers, let alone people who are well-read in terms of modern creationist literature.

However, the theme is incredibly short-sighted.  Why?

First, beware when somebody tells you that YEC is the only option, because if you check their claim, you'll find that mainstream Christianity, including the majority of evangelical conservatives, do not dogmatically hold to strict YEC.  Kurt Wise says so himself, as I quoted him in the last article that he appeared in on this blog.  Proponents of YEC would do well to familiarize themselves with TCLP, and this list at NCSE.

Second, beware when somebody tries to convince you that their brand of Christianity is "the only biblical kind" while at the same time making the foundation of it something other than Christ.  This should alarm you at the outset.  Furthermore, the more exclusivist the language of a certain strain of theological belief becomes, the faster it shrinks down the number of "biblical Christians" or "true Christians" in the world.  While Phelps and Jehovah's Witnesses and a complete embrace of hyper-Calvinism (dystheism, here we come) might be comfortable or even happy with a very small church universal, most modern Christians are not.

Third, beware when somebody makes an unnecessary either-or proclamation.  When it is declared (simply by fiat) that legitimate Christianity must include creationism, the person who espouses such a position has backed himself into a corner.  When all of the evidence is fairly investigated and all of the scientific findings are evaluated, and creationism is found to be completely bankrupt, what happens to our previously over-confident creationist?  He must put his money where his mouth is and renounce his Christianity, or somehow back-peddle, admit his error and change his stance, joining the many Christians who accept evolution and an ancient cosmos.

Roach wrote:

"Wise, professor of theology and science at Southern and a Harvard-trained paleontologist, argues that the methods of modern science are inadequate to determine the origin or age of the earth."

This would tend to make a curious reader want to know what methods Wise would suggest science should use to determine the age of the earth.  It might also make you curious as to what research Wise has done into such questions and what methods he himself chooses to make use of (if any).  A really clever reader might even wonder if the methods of modern science have been found or shown to be inadequate, or if certain people simply declare them to be inadequate because they don't lead to answers that work nicely with certain dogmatic predetermined conclusions.

Roach quoted Wise:

"“As a scientist I am convinced that the Bible—and not science—is the correct place to begin to determine the age of things,” he writes. “I also believe that the Bible is very clear about the creation being only about 6000 years old.”"

The sentiments expressed here are absurd to the point of insanity.  The first sentence is incoherent—one cannot as a scientist declare science the wrong place to begin when trying to answer a scientific question.  Deciding you know the answer before doing the research is completely unscientific, and is a sentiment Wise expresses as an apologist (for ignorance), not as a scientist.

Imagine with me, for a moment, a similar statement of spectacular incompetence.  "As a dentist I am convinced that the Tooth Fairy—and not good dentistry—is the correct place to begin to determine proper oral hygiene."  Could we rightly agree to call a person who expressed such foolishness a dentist?  Or perhaps you think that too ridiculous an analogy?  Then try this one.  "As a plumber I am convinced that a jumpy mustached italian—not the trade of plumbing—is the correct place to begin to determine how to fix that broken water main."  If somebody uttered that sentence, would they be saying it as a plumber, or as an idiot?


While it may be clear to some that the Biblical age of the earth is a mere ~6,000 years, what is clear about the age of the earth when we turn our attention to the evidence?  Surely, the desire that our beliefs be reflective of reality is a reasonable one.

Startling to some will be the fact that ancient proto-Iranians and Mesopotamians, the Chinese, Neolithic Georgians, and possibly the Egyptians were all producing beverage alcohol (both wine and, to my amusement, beer) from between 6,000 and 9,000 years ago.  Agriculture itself has been around for at least 6,000 years, and depending on the region 10,000 years or more.

The history of ancient Egypt (and the evidence regarding the Predynastic period) provides us with a stark contradiction of the YEC timeline.  Also, people have been living at Byblos since 7,000 years ago.  Furthermore, the Americas have been populated for at least the last 12,500 years.

Currently, many dendrochronology (tree-ring dating) sequences go back between 8,000 and 10,000 years, with the oldest unbroken record going back more than 11,000 years.

Eclipsing the impressive age of such dead trees is the living creosote bush.  One in Johnson Valley, California, is 9,400 years old.  Even older is the one in the Mojave Desert, called "King Clone," measured at around 12,000 years old.

Alternatively, you could learn about Y-chromosomal Adam, our most recent common male ancestor from 60,000 years ago.  Even better, Mitochondrial Eve was walking around about 140,000 years ago.

Not old enough for you?  Consider varve formations.  Many varve deposits show a continuous record of sedimentation going back around 40,000 years, and some record more than 225,000 years of sedimentation!  Or, consider the Green River Formation, which, no matter the many failed attempts to "disprove" the clear indications, has more than ten million individual layers.  This means that the laminae and varves in the Formation conservatively record around 4 million years of time (see here, or here, or here).

Ice-core dating goes back quite far, as well.  Cores from Greenland have consistently yielded data going back over 100,000 years.  Cores from Vostok, Russia show a record going back over 400,000 years.  Cores from Antarctica (the Dome F and EPICA cores) reach back 720,000 and 740,000 years, respectively.

The evidence goes on and on.  Be it anthropological, historical, literary, archaeological, genetic, chemical, atomic, et cetera, virtually every place we can focus our investigative gaze reveals facts that clearly show the earth to be much, much older than ~6,000 years.


That the SBJT could devote an issue to YEC dogma despite the vast preponderance of evidence is remarkable.  That a "professor of science," and indeed the head of the department, and a Harvard graduate, can so lucidly express such delusion is embarrassing.  That Wise sometimes postures as if the scientific data supports YEC (when it doesn't), and other times says that evidence isn't worth a pile of beans, only makes the situation that much more damning.
 Posted 8/5/2007 8:25 PM - 285 Views - 21 eProps - 26 comments

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I'm not a Christian so I think the whole creation idea is poppycock, but, I see a corollary with the YECs and what is historically known as the agricultural revolution. From what I've learned, anyway, mankind "settled down" about 10,000 years ago and transitioned from hunter/gatherer to farmer. This would be the beginning of civilization. Take into account the relative ignorance of the Bible's authors and you might find that the beginning of civilization and the beginning of time may be mistaken for each other. As soon as you cannot answer the question of "what came before," one might assume... nothing.

I'm just trying to wrap my head around why a YEC might believe the way s/he does.
Posted 8/2/2007 7:24 PM by Accolade - recommend - reply

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Mostly because it's all they've ever been told. That's my experience, anyway.

YEC runs into trouble with agriculture because of the claims of Genesis 4. If a ~6,000 year Adamic time line were true, we should see evidence of agriculture being an immediate and constant aspect of human living. But when we study the history of agriculture, we find that it pops up in different places at different times, before 4000 BCE.

And of course, you are certainly correct that the dawn of civilization is a neat corollary with most religious creation myths. Thanks very much for commenting.
Posted 8/3/2007 1:42 AM by Caveat_Towers - recommend - reply

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Is there any scientific dating system that has not been debunked? And what do you say about the belief in the theory that God created the earth with an apparent age? If that is not believed, then what about the fact that catastrophic major disasters have thrown off the ability for scientists to accurately date geological strata?

In truth, no one knows the creation time of the earth. But, that is what faith is about now isn't it?

Posted 8/4/2007 6:44 AM by PapaMcEuin - recommend - reply

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```````


"...for they shall cry unto Jehovah
because of oppressors,
and he will send them a saviour,
and a defender, and he will deliver them."
(Isaiah 19:20)(ASV)-BibleGateway
 
"...At the time that God
has already decided,
he will send Jesus Christ
back again."
(1Timothy 6:15)(CEV)-BibleGateway
 
JESUS  DECLARED :
"I have come in My Father's name
and with His power..."
(John 5:43)(AMP)-BibleGateway
 
"I will come with the mighty acts
of the Lord Jehovah..."
(Psalm 71:16)(ASV)-BibleGateway

"No one knows the day or hour.
The angels in heaven don't know,
and the Son himself doesn't know. 
Only the Father knows."
(Matthew 24:36)(CEV)-BibleGateway

"But no one knows the day or the hour.
No! - Not even the angels in heaven know.
The Son does not know.
Only the Father knows."
(Mark 12:32)(NLV)-BibleGateway


"In the past God overlooked such ignorance,
but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
For he has set a day
when he will judge the world with justice
by the man he has appointed
.
He has given proof of this to all men
by raising him from the dead."
(Acts 17:30,31)(NIV)-BibleGateway
  ```````

Why is God's Name
Missing From Your Bible ?
(click-here)

      ```````
Posted 8/4/2007 9:23 PM by THEVOICE_1 - recommend - reply

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THEVOICE_1,

Don't spam my comments section with Bible verses, please.  If you have a substantive reply or something useful to add, by all means do, but simply cut-n-pasting a bunch of Scripture and linking to your JW rhetoric is ridiculous.
 
 
 
 
 
PapaMcEuin,

You asked, "Is there any scientific dating system that has not been debunked?"

Yes.  I mentioned a few in the OP (dendochronology and ice-core dating).  There's also radiometric dating (including potassium-argon and isochron dating, and the very precise method of uranium-lead dating), and you'll want to read this if you don't understand how reliable radiometric dating is.  Additionally, the more commonly known method of radiocarbon dating (sometimes abbreviated as C-14 dating) is used for younger samples and is very reliable.

The question, actually, is more like is there any current and widely used scientific dating system that has been debunked?  Not surprisingly, we find that the answer is "no."  A dating method isn't "debunked" when one or two crack-pot "scientists" claim (despite the evidence) that it doesn't work.


You also asked, "And what do you say about the belief in the theory that God created the earth with an apparent age?"

I believe you refer to the "omphalos hypothesis."  I say about this idea what most others say, and that is that it makes God a liar.  It is a dubious, if not wholly untenable, philosophical (not scientific, and not a theory — scientific theories are testable and falsifiable, and omphalos is neither) position that is understandably unpopular.


You also asked, "...what about the fact that catastrophic major disasters have thrown off the ability for scientists to accurately date geological strata?"

What evidence do you have for this "fact"?  That catastrophe does indeed happen is not the problem for uniformitarianism that some people believe it is, and twenty minutes spent with any modern geoscience textbook will dispel readers of such a notion.


You wrote, "In truth, no one knows the creation time of the earth. But, that is what faith is about now isn't it?"

While we may not "know" an exact time for the planet's formation, we can (and do) know that the earth is about 4,539,994,000 years older than the normative ~6,000 years of YEC.  Equating ignorance with faith is certainly interesting, but it doesn't really help us in matters such as these.

Posted 8/5/2007 6:44 PM by Caveat_Towers - recommend - reply

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I read it all, even the comments. I think the tooth fairy analogy is brilliant. I'm over at http://www.xanga.com/soccerdadforlife/608753940/item.html discussing radiometric dating. Hm, I never thought of dendochronology. If the oldest tree dates back to 11,000 years, this already falsifies the age assertion of Archbishop James Ussher. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ussher_chronology Over at soccerdadforlife's xanga, in response to my comment with a link that explained bad samples for radiometric dating vs. good samples for radiometric dating, he says "They say that discrepancies can be explained. More ad hoc arguments to support a theory in crisis." I wonder how YEC's explains away how even dendochronology exceeds the 6000 year old limit.  
Posted 8/11/2007 3:59 AM by The_Astrocreep Xanga True Member - recommend - reply

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The thing about the "discrepancies" when it comes to radiometric dating isn't that they "say" they can be explained. They actually explain them, empirically. It is the height of stupidity for a creationist to point to a case where a technique was misused and then declare the technique to be defunct.

If I use a twelve-inch ruler to determine the length of the perimeter of your house, and I come up with an inaccurate number, that doesn't mean a twelve-inch ruler is a hopeless failure of a measurement tool. It means I used an improper tool for the job.

If I use a 36-foot measuring tape to determine the height of an ant, and I come up with an inaccurate result, that doesn't mean a 36-foot measuring tape is evidence that the technique of length-measurement is a theory in crisis. YEC adherents rarely realize the importance of this concept. That, or they do, but cannot admit it because then they would also have to admit that their "criticisms" of modern dating techniques are bullshit.
Posted 8/11/2007 1:42 PM by Derek_Timothy - recommend - reply

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[And what do you say about the belief in the theory that God created the earth with an apparent age?]

A lying god? That's great theology right there. Doesn't it seem more likely that the Biblical account is inaccurate?
Posted 8/11/2007 9:16 PM by evolutionexplained - recommend - reply

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caveat: "The first sentence is incoherent—one cannot as a scientist declare science the wrong place to begin when trying to answer a scientific question."

You obviously don't understand the importance of axioms in science. Your statement itself is unscientific--mere metaphysics. You should read some secular philosophy that long ago debunked your naive positivism.

All your dodgy dating methods just prove your lack of wisdom. The Bible's wisdom is clear, "What is lacking cannot be counted."

"Historical science" is an oxymoron.

Posted 8/15/2007 7:41 AM by soccerdadforlife - recommend - reply

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So many assumptions, so little time.

"You obviously don't understand the importance of axioms in science."

Obviously.  I mean, afterall, I don't agree with you, so I must therefore be hopelessly and completely ignorant.

"You should read some secular philosophy that long ago debunked your naive positivism."

Again, obviously.  I'm glad that you're so perceptive as to be able to miraculously know whether or not I've read any philosophy.

"All your dodgy dating methods just prove your lack of wisdom."

Sure, because if I had a good amount of wisdom, presumably like you do, I would reject all of the dating methods of science even though none have been empirically refuted or shown to be unreliable in any scientific way whatsoever.

"The Bible's wisdom is clear..."

Perhaps the truest thing I've seen you write.

""Historical science" is an oxymoron."

lol

Does Mario do your plumbing?

Posted 8/15/2007 9:37 AM by Caveat_Towers - recommend - reply

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caveat: "I must therefore be hopelessly and completely ignorant."

You said it!

caveat: "I'm glad that you're so perceptive as to be able to miraculously know whether or not I've read any philosophy."

You may have read some philosophy, but you obviously don't understand philosophy of science.

caveat: "all of the dating methods of science "

That's "all the dating methods of pseudo-science".

You need to get both your neurons firing at the same time.

Posted 8/15/2007 7:29 PM by soccerdadforlife - recommend - reply

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Two comments in, and you're already having to resort to the standard creationist tactic of sentence-fragment quote mining?  I'm impressed.  I mean, I knew you were prone to silencing opposing views by banning people from your Xanga, but c'mon...

"You may have read some philosophy, but you obviously don't understand philosophy of science."

Again, obviously.  In your fundamentalist version of English, "obviously" can almost always be assumed to denote the clarity of a person's stupidity for being so silly as to disagree with you.

"That's "all the dating methods of pseudo-science"."

Hey, if it makes you feel better, call 'em whatever you want.  Doesn't do a thing to actually show in any real way why any of them are untrustworthy when applied correctly.  And it doesn't do a damn thing to provide any creditable research or verifiable results from the "dating methods don't work" camp.  Here in the real world, tested, falsifiable, successful techniques aren't in any danger just because some people don't like their results and pretend that they aren't true.

"You need to get both your neurons firing at the same time."

How many insults do you post on Xanga in an average week?  Does it ever convince people to buy into your views, or do you just do it as Ministry For Jesus?

Posted 8/16/2007 12:26 AM by Caveat_Towers - recommend - reply

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soccerdad,

"Your statement itself is unscientific--mere metaphysics."

Objectivity bashing...nice. So...you must be saying that we cannot use the scientific method to see if the scientific method produces accurate results? Are you sure about that...because I'm pretty sure we can use it with a line up of other methodologies against an otherwise easily accessible mystery we can create for the experiment...and then scientifically test the scientific method against psychics...tea leaf reading...divining rods...guessing...wishful thinking...prayer...and anything else you can think of...and I'm pretty damn sure what's going to yield the most accurate results 9 times out of 10. Since I don't have a monopoly on common sense...or maybe I do (which would be oximoronic)...why the flaky "disproof?" Why did you take science which is the best union of our senses in terms of objectivity...and pretend like its "just metaphysics?" I can come up with a lot of snide reasons...but perhaps you'd like to explain yourself?

You may not believe in the mind's physical dependence on neurons, Soccerdad, but neurons believe in you.

ARU
Posted 8/16/2007 1:13 PM by WAR_ON_ERROR - recommend - reply

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caveat: "How many insults do you post on Xanga in an average week?"

Usually one for one if it's entertaining.

caveat: "Here in the real world, tested, falsifiable, successful techniques "

Lots of scientific theories aren't falsifiable. Successful? Like the two chalatan tailors in The Emperor's New Clothes? Experimentally tested? Contemporaneously observed? lol  It's sad how evolutionists feel they must pound the pulpit because their science is so weak. Your "real world" is a "Just-So" story. lol   Real science requires experimental evidence where the actual mechanism is identified.

agnostics: "you must be saying that we cannot use the scientific method to see if the scientific method produces accurate results?"

There are scientific methodologies, but it's incorrect to speak of "the scientific method." The key point is whether there is a workable demarcation criterion so that we may distinguish between science and non-science. I claim that contemporaneous experimentation (as opposed to analogic experimentation) is the only useful criterion. Based on my criterion, paleosciences, creationism, and astrology are non-science. Modern-day experimentation testing evolutionary hypotheses are real science, though I think they are bad science which will ultimately be rejected.

agnostics: "Why did you take science which is the best union of our senses in terms of objectivity...and pretend like its "just metaphysics?""

Let me illustrate. The statement, "Science can explain everything" is inherent to the philosophy of scientific positivism. However, it itself is not a scientific statement about nature--it's an epistemological statement. The statement explains something about epistemology, which is outside of science. Hence, the statement is self-contradictory. This is the essential fallacy of scientific positivism and is why no philosophers subscribe to that school any more.

Posted 8/16/2007 8:34 PM by soccerdadforlife - recommend - reply

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DT: "They actually explain them, empirically"

Sure, scientists have observed the complete radiometric decay of a pluton crystal of plutonium (or uranium, etc.) from formation to ultimate decay. lol

I was reading your post charitably, as it's obviously impossible to explain anything empirically. One may observe--which is acting empirically. One does not explain empirically.

Using radiometric dating to determine the age of anything is like using a random tape measure to determine the length of the reign of Maimonides. The tool isn't suited to the task. It's not even useful as a tool for anything I can see. It's "tool-ness" is in doubt.

caveat, what is uniformitarianism? And how does it differ from Lyellian Uniformitarianism? And how was Lyellian Uniformitarianism used to determine the ages of the rock layers? And what is the status of Lyellian Uniformitarianism now?

caveat: "Mostly because it's all they've ever been told. That's my experience, anyway."

For the average creationist maybe. Probably the same for the average evolutionist. Completely the opposite for creation scientists. Almost all of us began as evolutionists. We've seen both sides of the argument. Even if I abandoned creationism, I don't think I could ever take up the sheer speculation of paleoscience again. I'd prefer to admit I know nothing than to believe such a fairy tale as "historical science."

Posted 8/16/2007 10:22 PM by soccerdadforlife - recommend - reply

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caveat: "we can (and do) know that the earth is about 4,539,994,000 years older than the normative ~6,000 years of YEC"

If your knowledge is anti-knowledge (and it is), how far up out of the anti-knowledge hole do you have to climb before you can approach the height of knowledge of a newborn babe?

Posted 8/16/2007 10:25 PM by soccerdadforlife - recommend - reply

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SDFL, coming here and spewing lots of rhetoric is not remotely the same thing as providing any evidence or cogent argumentation.

"Lots of scientific theories aren't falsifiable."

lol. Then I'll expect to see you list lots of them and explain how they are all un-falsifiable, in an upcoming post on your Xanga.

"Successful? ...Experimentally tested? Contemporaneously observed?"

Yes, indeed, the modern scientific dating techniques are successful, and have been experimentally tested. I'll leave it to you to explain how they could be "contemporaneously observed."

"Sure, scientists have observed the complete radiometric decay of a pluton crystal of plutonium (or uranium, etc.) from formation to ultimate decay. lol"

D'oh! In a stunning victory, SDFL has (in one sarcastic sentence) cast down the entire field of radiometric dating and all of its research and experimentation. Surely, as soon as he can share his epiphany by publishing, scientists around the world will rush to award him a Nobel.

"Using radiometric dating to determine the age of anything is like using a random tape measure to determine the length of the reign of Maimonides."

As you've finally and firmly demonstrated your complete lack of understanding of radiometric dating, I'll not take your comments about it seriously, henceforth. Instead, I'll just again remind you that there are plenty of informative links in my OP that are sure to help you cure your ignorance.

"caveat, what is uniformitarianism? And how does it differ from Lyellian Uniformitarianism? And how was Lyellian Uniformitarianism used to determine the ages of the rock layers? And what is the status of Lyellian Uniformitarianism now?"

Why do you demand that I give you a history lesson on the hard-line uniformitarianism of Lyell, and the modern uniformitarian understanding of the world that has no problem incorporating catastrophe? That Lyell wasn't perfectly correct does not mean that catastrophism is true.

"Completely the opposite for creation scientists. Almost all of us began as evolutionists."

As before, I'll simply take your word on this, without any need for evidence to back your claim.

"I'd prefer to admit I know nothing than to believe such a fairy tale as "historical science.""

I love how you can define entire fields of study out of existence. It's a remarkable strategy, really. Come across some bit of science that (as usual) contradicts YEC? Bam! You've got the answer. Declare, by fiat, that such evidence is inadmissible. This kind of self-imposed ignorance is remarkably invincible.

"If your knowledge is anti-knowledge (and it is), how far up out of the anti-knowledge hole do you have to climb before you can approach the height of knowledge of a newborn babe?"

Ah, more claims without foundation, and yet another insult. Almost, you persuade me to be a Christian.
Posted 8/18/2007 7:03 PM by Caveat_Towers - recommend - reply

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caveat: "Then I'll expect to see you list lots of them "

Quantum mechanics, general relativity, Modern Synthesis, Punctuated Equilibrium.  See this article for an explanation of how science works:

http://www.its.caltech.edu/~dg/HowScien.pdf

caveat: "D'oh! In a stunning victory, SDFL has (in one sarcastic sentence) cast down the entire field of radiometric dating and all of its research and experimentation. Surely, as soon as he can share his epiphany by publishing, scientists around the world will rush to award him a Nobel."

Good you acknowledged it. My point stands without any refutation by you.

caveat: "As you've finally and firmly demonstrated your complete lack of understanding of radiometric dating, I'll not take your comments about it seriously, henceforth. Instead, I'll just again remind you that there are plenty of informative links in my OP that are sure to help you cure your ignorance."

Your links merely demonstrate anti-knowledge, as you do. I don't take your comments seriously due to their epistemic deficiency.

caveat: "Why do you demand that I give you a history lesson on the hard-line uniformitarianism of Lyell, and the modern uniformitarian understanding of the world that has no problem incorporating catastrophe? That Lyell wasn't perfectly correct does not mean that catastrophism is true."

The point wasn't the history lesson, but that since Lyellian Uniformitarianism is the basis for dating rock layers, and since the age of rock layers is used to date fossils, and since LU has been rejected, fossil dating lacks foundation. Fossil ages were assigned long before radiometric dating was available. Perhaps you don't know that since the '70s geologists are now catastrophists--though most only accept local catastrophes.

caveat: "As before, I'll simply take your word on this, without any need for evidence to back your claim."

Testimonies of creation scientists abound. Try googling "used to believe in evolution" or "former evolutionist". I can think of (or found) Gary Parker, Ken Ham (though not a scientist, he switched from believing in evolution to creation), Dean Kenyon, Robert Gentry, A. E. Wilder-Smith, John Rendle-Short, Charlie Lieberts, Russell Humphreys, Alan Galbraith, Don Batten, Kurt Wise, and David Catchpoole.

This shows that creationists are not generally ignorant of evolution as evolution fanatics claim (I distinguish between those doing "historical science" and the pop science fanatics who are evolution apologists).

caveat: "I love how you can define entire fields of study out of existence."

Actually, what I was doing is called demarcation--it looks for boundaries of distinction between things--in this case, between science and non-science. This is a standard topic in philosophy of science (Popper came up with falsification as his demarcation criterion). Most philosophers of science now don't believe that a demarcation criterion exists, but in an article I am writing I argue that I have found a very useful one.

On a new topic, let's consider one of the assumptions of radiometric dating: "Radioactive decay rates are constant."  Does nuclear fission falsify this assumption? For example, when a fission bomb detonates, the radioactive decay rates increase so much that half-life becomes immeasurably brief. Does this falsify the constant decay rate assumption of radiometric dating?

Posted 8/19/2007 11:13 AM by soccerdadforlife - recommend - reply

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I should add, lest you guffaw too loudly, that my point regarding falsifiability is taken from modern philosophers of science. There are serious experimental difficulties with all the theories I listed where they fail to explain some of the data. The difficulties are dealt with by ad hoc modifications; hence, the theories are not truly falsifiable. Still, they are commonly believed by the experts in the field.
Posted 8/20/2007 12:15 AM by soccerdadforlife - recommend - reply

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Wait a minute. I noted my expectation for you to list the many scientific theories that you claim are un-falsifiable. You responded, "Quantum mechanics, general relativity, Modern Synthesis, Punctuated Equilibrium. See this article for an explanation of how science works."

I find this fairly humorous. The very article you linked says that general relativity is falsifiable. It also says that "the things that science has taught us about how the world works are the most secure elements in all of human knowledge." Within these secure elements, the "textbook science that is known with great confidence," he names both the theory of relativity and the theory of evolution, noting that "they are still called theories for historic reasons only."

You'd think that you would link to a source that backs up your claims... But in any case, thank you for the link, I enjoyed reading it. It runs contrary to your frequent Xanga claims in almost every respect, so I won't be surprised if you don't link to it again.

I suppose, returning to falsifiability, that I could just take your word for it when you claim that quantum mechanics is un-falsifiable, without expecting you to provide any evidence that runs contrary to what the scientific literature says. Or, I could just laugh at you and remember that just because scientists have failed to falsify a theory, that doesn't mean that they couldn't do so in principle, if certain discoveries or observations were made.

Which do you think I'll do?

And I can't take you seriously about the modern evolutionary synthesis. If you really don't understand the many parts of the synthesis that could, on their own, be falsified in several ways, then I'm not sure what to tell you.

And I think punctuated equilibrium is just as falsifiable as any other theory of long-term evolution. If a fossil rabbit was found in Precambrian strata, that would provide persuasive falsification of evolution as we understand it, and perhaps render punctuated equilibrium a completely useless idea.


I said, "In a stunning victory, SDFL has (in one sarcastic sentence) cast down the entire field of radiometric dating and all of its research and experimentation. Surely, as soon as he can share his epiphany by publishing, scientists around the world will rush to award him a Nobel." You responded, "Good you acknowledged it. My point stands without any refutation by you."

I'll await the publication of your "point" and the subsequent awarding of your Nobel. And why should I bother to refute lunacy? No scientist has ever observed the complete, hour-by-hour day-by-day life of an 89-year-old man, from fertilization until his ultimate demise. Oooohh noooo! This must mean that science is wrong about human life spans and the processes that are contained within them. *rolls eyes*


"Your links merely demonstrate anti-knowledge, as you do. I don't take your comments seriously due to their epistemic deficiency."

Ah, more hand-waving. "Anti-knowledge." lol

I can envision the commercial campaign now...
Science: The anti-knowledge! Just say NO to reality!

...And if you don't take my comments seriously, why talk with me? Nobody invited you here, and I certainly don't appreciate your raving rhetoric and insults. I'll ask nicely that you keep it to yourself.


"The point wasn't the history lesson, but that since Lyellian Uniformitarianism is the basis for dating rock layers, and since the age of rock layers is used to date fossils, and since LU has been rejected, fossil dating lacks foundation."

You once again display a stunningly inaccurate "understanding" of modern geology. Time spent reading any modern Geoscience textbook should help you, as will this excellent primer.


"Testimonies of creation scientists abound."

Indeed. And such testimonies: almost universally attest to misinformed "understandings" of evolution, pre-conversion to YEC; invariably turn on religious adherence to the superstitious creation myth of Christianity; and in all cases I've seen attest to yet a deeper misrepresentation of evolution from their vantage point as creation "scientists." I noticed you mentioned Kurt Wise, who my OP, and one article here before, talks about specifically. It is interesting to note that your comments here have almost exclusively relied on YEC rhetoric, absurd claims, and insults, all the while persistently ignoring my OP. If you're just going to continue to act this way, I'll kindly ask you to simply stop.


"...what I was doing is called demarcation... ...but in an article I am writing I argue that I have found a very useful one."

Your brand of demarcation is so powerful, too. It sweeps all evidence under the rug that you find objectionable to your YEC worldview. I will, as before, eagerly await the publication of your new demarcation criteria, and assume that a landslide of scientific praise will be thrown your way, surely ushering in a paradigm shift.


"On a new topic, let's consider one of the assumptions of radiometric dating: "Radioactive decay rates are constant.""

You can't seriously be headed for the "argument" that radioactive decay rates haven't been constant, therefore the earth is young....Can you? Claims along this line have been refuted so many, many, many times, as to be patently ridiculous. There are many online resources where a person can learn about the different kinds of radioactive decay, including both fusion and fission, alpha, beta, gamma, et cetera.
Posted 8/20/2007 8:09 PM by Caveat_Towers - recommend - reply

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"...And if you don't take my comments seriously, why talk with me? Nobody invited you here, and I certainly don't appreciate your raving rhetoric and insults. I'll ask nicely that you keep it to yourself."

Let's see. You can insult me but I can't strike back. Rigght. I try to discuss some serious things, but you twist the truth and are incapable of learning.

I'll depart to talk with skeptics who are not so mendacious, ridiculous, and cowardly. I actually learn something from them on occasion.

Posted 8/20/2007 10:40 PM by soccerdadforlife - recommend - reply

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Awe, thanks. :)

JT
Posted 8/20/2007 10:50 PM by Walter_Rat Xanga True Member - recommend - reply

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I must've missed where I insulted you, SDFL.  That or, as usual, you're making things up without any intention of backing them up with proof or evidence...

And if being "incapable of learning" means that I do my best to answer your....arguments....pointing out, for instance, that a source you reference contradicts you, or that all of the current evidence runs counter to your claims, then I am very, very curious what it would mean if I were "capable" of learning.  I suppose it would mean accepting all of your groundless claims at face value?  Joining your camp after your multiple insults?  Being easily convinced by rhetoric that I've already run across multiple times before?

Posted 8/21/2007 12:52 PM by Caveat_Towers - recommend - reply

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Interesting that SDFL resorts to the YEC tactic of saying that science is necessarily restricted to contemporaneous observation.  This view of science arbitrarily reduces its scope by rejecting any knowledge gained from making valid inferences from observational facts.  I addressed several aspects of this position, please see http://www.xanga.com/syncretic/565605654/observable-testable-repeatable-pt-1.html and http://www.xanga.com/syncretic/565828428/observable-testable-repeatable-pt-2.html.

Great post.  Typical ensuing debate.

Posted 8/22/2007 12:53 PM by syncretic - recommend - reply

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This has been nagging at my subconscious all day.  SDFE said, "On a new topic, let's consider one of the assumptions of radiometric dating: "Radioactive decay rates are constant."  Does nuclear fission falsify this assumption? For example, when a fission bomb detonates, the radioactive decay rates increase so much that half-life becomes immeasurably brief. Does this falsify the constant decay rate assumption of radiometric dating?"

Leaving aside for a minute the implications of the assertion that all radiometric dating samples have been subjected to conditions equivalent to the interior of a nuclear fission explosion, could you please cite some scientific references that support the statement that when a fission bomb explodes, radioactive decay rates increase to "immeasurably brief" half-lives?  What radioisotopes, how were the measurements or observations taken, and in what scientific journals were the results reported?

Posted 8/22/2007 11:32 PM by syncretic - recommend - reply

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